Comments on The Jiu-Jitsu Fighter: Thoughts on Jiu-Jitsu Belt Progression

Thank you for your comment, Ben. You have some vai...

2009-03-25T09:00:00.000-05:00

Thank you for your comment, Ben. You have some vailid points.

Very interesting and insightful post. I think that...

2009-03-24T18:05:00.000-05:00

Very interesting and insightful post. I think that the contradictory nature of self validation and external validation is a cycle that go hand in hand. As a blue belt, if you can successully compete against other blue belts, you build more self confidence which in turn will lead to more successful competitions.

I think students need to leave the decision to belt test in the hands of their instructors, who are better equiped to decide when they are ready. A bird has to learn to fly some day, and reciving that promotion is a good way to push yourself and your students to reach for that next level.

Sam, thank you! I'm one of your 103 subscribers.
2009-02-02T07:29:00.000-06:00
Sam, thank you! I'm one of your 103 subscribers.

After you wrote that post back in November, I had it in my mind that I wanted to share it somehow with others. Not only was there a lot of discussion here, there was much talk at our school also.

I felt honored my perspective was included into th...

2009-02-01T23:13:00.000-06:00

I felt honored my perspective was included into this mix. And I like the dialogue this post created. I will keep checking back on your blog from time to time. Great stuff!

great debate, as long as we all keep it profession...

2009-01-28T10:59:00.000-06:00

great debate, as long as we all keep it professional with cogent ideas about where we stand. Brad and Garrett are two of my best friends. I'm glad we're not all carbon copies of each other and value our differences.

So please, no cheap shots.

a bit harsh, don't you think? did i show such disr...

2009-01-28T10:52:00.000-06:00

a bit harsh, don't you think? did i show such disrespect to those i was replying to? i don't think so. i felt their comments invited a response, and therefore offered such. do the things i bring up really make you feel that uncomfortable? wow.
nonetheless, its very brave of you to take such cheap shots at me under an anonymous title.
i don't worship the belt. i'm fine where i'm at and will feel comfortable there for years and years. we have a motto here, "the belt simply holds up your pants." what i'm trying to say is: if we're going to hold off on getting the belt (which is fine, i don't have a problem with that), we should also have the courtesy of not deceiving others by entering formal tournaments under such a facade.
of all things, i would rather be defeated as a weak blue belt in a tourney than basque in the glory of deceiving a bunch of white belts so that i can have some metal around my chest.
we gain much more in losing than in winning.
it seems you've talked to, in your words, "real practitioners" that are aware that our system.
thank you for gracing us with your wisdom and shedding such light on us.

i do have to say that brent sounds like the typica...

2009-01-28T10:02:00.000-06:00

i do have to say that brent sounds like the typical person these days who gets into bjj. he doesnt do it for the tradition, he wants to get a new belt as fast as he can and wear it around town acting like he is a tough guy. those of us who have talked and studied with real practitioners of bjj dont worship the belt. that is secondary. i have found those that only worry about what belt they are, are the ones who drop out when white belts are tapping them out. 6 months is no where near the time to progress to a new belt unless you are a prodigy like someone stated above.

in other words dont re-invent the wheel to make your school look like it has a bunch of higher belts and then get your ass kicked at competitions. the actual competion is a better 'testing'.

yes, testing is now every 6 months, but note that ...

2009-01-28T02:31:00.000-06:00

yes, testing is now every 6 months, but note that not everyone is invited to do so every 6 months. that is, you're not going to get promoted every 6 months just because there is testing.
its not that rare that people get the black in 5 or so years. i've searched around quite a bit. it happens regularly. as mentioned before, progress has much more to do with mat time than it does with "years." cameron diffley (of legion jiu jitsu) started training in 2003 and got his "brazilian" black belt 6 months ago.
sandbagging is very very awful. consider how rickson's son kron did in the world championships last year. he was in the brown belt division and smoked all his competition, usually all within a minute or two. after the tournament, rickson blatantly said in an interview that kron is at black belt level, but he's holding off on promoting kron-without giving a reason. i'm not taking a shot at rickson or kron (rickson is one of my heroes and a person i have the highest respect for), but goodness gracious! what's the hold up?
i understand, respect, and appreciate the tendency to feel and say that "i'm not ready for that." however, prolonging it for years and years, all the while clearly being at a moderate level is, if one wishes to compete in tournaments, ridiculous.
perhaps professors and doctoral students should start entering research competitions with undergraduates, simply because they don't yet feel worthy of the masters or PhD they've been given by a university.
certainly, there is lee-way in saying, "i need more time, my guard isn't there yet," etc. in my experience, Conan and Shihan respect that and say, "good, let's continue to fine tune those parts of your game, and see where you are down the road."
but if someone has the audacity to train for an extended period of time and then enter a tournament as a white belt, they're not only selling themselves short, but deceiving others.
perhaps there are camps that promote too soon, i don't know. one thing we do know, though, is that some camps prolong promotion to the point where their students are competing with the larger community of camps that do it more "on time." it is those camps that are shaming the jiu jitsu community.
i, for one, can make a comparison between other camps and our's, as i've trained elsewhere before training at SRSBK. my brother is a brown belt under Pedro Sauer (recently voted the most technical teacher in gracie brazilian jiu jitsu). with that, i want to be very clear when i say that i have never rolled with a more technical jiu jitsu practitioner than Conan, and i've rolled with "brazilian" brown belts.
i think we should be careful about the way we look at the promotion system in a given program and critique it.
it seems to me that it is the non-experts (including myself) that are walking around thinking we actually have valid opinions on the promotion systems that are clearly the business of experts of the art.

I know my comment is pretty late, but I am going t...

2009-01-27T22:43:00.000-06:00

I know my comment is pretty late, but I am going to have to agree with brad.

I sympathize with the students that didn't want to test and get a higher belt than they felt they deserved. One of the fun parts of Juijitsu is competing, and If you are a blue or purple belt but don't think you deserve it. That can take all of the fun out of a tournament because unless you sandbag, you might not be competative.

Back when I was a member of the gym. We really only had testing about once a year. So that time line ran about typical with BJJ.

In BJJ, there is no rule saying "ten years" but that is pretty close to the norm. sure you can find a prodigy like bj penn that only takes four or five, but most the time it is going to be like the case of Alvin "the kid" Robinson. He has one of the best jui jistu games in MMA and it took him more than ten years to get his black belt.

This probably isn't the best forum for me to argue...

2009-01-27T20:21:00.000-06:00

This probably isn't the best forum for me to argue the view, because I grapple at the Dojo. I believe the view to be accurate so when the subject is raised I want to chime in that on balance the belt and traditional teacher/student system is a more protracted, less efficient and effective model than what I’ll call the North American System (NAS) that we see in Boxing, Wrestling and Kickboxing.

I wouldn’t agree that teachers can’t ignore the belt system, it’s certainly possible, but doing so would obviously be adopting a different system. In a traditional belt/teacher/student model it wouldn’t make sense to ignore belts, and perhaps at Roseberry’s it would be outside the directive of ownership and management, so in that framework, as has been posted, perhaps the belt system can’t be ignored. In any event, I don’t think any of the guys are necessarily shunning the belt system, it’s more of a difference of opinion on advancement and what merits advancement.

Georgette, as we now have a good number of belt pr...

2009-01-27T18:58:00.000-06:00

Georgette, as we now have a good number of belt promotions after today's testing, I suspect many of them will be mirroring your recent experiences. This is always an exciting time for me to see how folks mature into their new position.

Having worn the unmerited blue belt for six whole ...

2009-01-27T11:06:00.000-06:00

Having worn the unmerited blue belt for six whole days (five of which were training days) I can say that it really does make me feel like there is this awesome weight of responsibility on my shoulders. Now all the new white belts acting on their new year resolutions actually listen to what I say. That's fine if I'm drilling with them, because I don't really talk much, but now I am also conscious of being discreet with my off-the-cuff sotto voce comments. And people are coming to me, asking me questions and asking me for feedback-- I feel like pointing out that I am still the same person with the same lack of understanding as a week ago :)

But it is fun, nonetheless. I just hope I can prove my instructors were right.

Thank you for weighing in here, Brad. I appreciate...

2009-01-26T23:27:00.000-06:00

Thank you for weighing in here, Brad. I appreciate everyone's viewpoints of this subject. Most likely there is no single issue in this discipline that creates more controversy, then the belt system.

When I first began teaching full-time, I realized there was some need for measurement. I had to get a handle on where I was and where everyone else was at in their development. Shihan requires that we test, the majority of the students want to test to have something to show for their progression.

From a business standpoint, in terms of recruiting and retention, I've found that most students are looking for some sense of continuity and direction. I get asked all the time from students where I think they're at in their training. These types of questions are natural and highlight the importance of having a curriculum and belt system.

As a student, I could afford to shun the belt system and just train for the sake of training. But at the end of the day, reality has taught me that as a teacher I shouldn't ignore it, and more truthfully, can't ignore it.

I don’t know anyone that had in their minds that i...

2009-01-26T21:19:00.000-06:00

I don’t know anyone that had in their minds that it should take exactly ten years to obtain a black belt; my guess is someone said that as an example of the time it can take based on respect for the discipline of JJ.

I’m deliberately no expert, but I’ve been around gyms enough to know it’s very common in other disciplines and JJ where members won’t wear belts they’ve achieved because they respect JJ and don’t feel they’ve earned a particular belt, it’s not out of disrespect for whoever’s giving them out.

Usually who ever is running class respects this of the member/athlete, which has been my experience at Roseberry’s since I’ve trained there.

I’ve been open that I think the disadvantages of the belt system, and the rank teacher/student system it promotes, far outweigh the advantages. But I appreciate the opportunity to train at Roseberry’s even though I think I’m the all time leader in losses in the history of JJ at Roseberry’s, which is a testament to all very good existing and past athletes that have rolled through.

Brad R

Good stuff about the belt system and I am a huge R...

2009-01-25T11:10:00.000-06:00

Good stuff about the belt system and I am a huge Roy Harris fan. Not as well known as some of the others but a very unique guy with tons of experience with many of the top camps out there.

I personally can live without the belt system but that’s just one mans opinion. I do respect those that are promoted and share in their success, as it’s a big accomplishment. I just want to keep getting better regardless of the belt system. Don’t flame me guys because I respect the other views, but I have my own philosophy on the belt system is all. Great thought provoking topic Conan!!!

Andy

that's pretty funny. so would it be blue tooth tec...

2009-01-25T09:54:00.000-06:00

that's pretty funny. so would it be blue tooth technology?
that sham-wow guy . . .

That is too funny, Shawn! I can see it now, Vince,...

2009-01-25T09:19:00.000-06:00

That is too funny, Shawn! I can see it now, Vince, the Sham-wow guy could do the infomercial.

"Made in Germany, you know the Germans always make good stuff. Smart belt-wow. You're going to be saying WOW everytime!"

"I dunno, it sells itself!"

I think I found a solution to the belt problem:
2009-01-25T07:59:00.000-06:00
I think I found a solution to the belt problem:

"Announcing the new 'Smart Belt' from the JuJi Corporation. Using the latest advancements in neuro-technology, this belt connects to the cognitive and motor skill centers in the brain. As a students knowledge and proficiency increases (or decreases due to time out of the Dojo), micro-optics in the belt begin to change colors to display the exact level of the student. The need for testing is eliminated."

* Version 2.0 is available for black belts. The micro-optics are more finely tuned to show different degrees of black.

Thanks for the kind words, but just to be clear, m...

2009-01-24T20:35:00.000-06:00

Thanks for the kind words, but just to be clear, my intent was not to call out anyone who has trained with us in the past. My point was to highlight the overall contradiction of ideas about the belt system.

This may sound like I'm contradicting myself, but I actually believe it's healthy to question the established methods. It is that seeming contradiction of ideas that creates the tension, as well as the value, which the belt system holds.

Conan, you are not only an amazing teacher, but a ...

2009-01-24T18:06:00.000-06:00

Conan, you are not only an amazing teacher, but a great writer as well. This is a really, really good post.

I can really relate to what was said about the white belts and also the black belt. As a higher level white belt (yellow belt), it really is a survival game against those who have more experience than me. But when I roll with people of equal or lesser experience, I do see the mount as a great achievement and find myself trying (notice I said trying LOL) to finish from guard a lot. As far as black belt (you) I can see that you really like to be efficient and "ooze" over your opponents.

Once again, a really good post.

not being in the military, i don't understand the ...

2009-01-24T17:45:00.000-06:00

not being in the military, i don't understand the military rank analogy on the link. nonetheless, it looks interesting.
this is a very necessary post. receiving a promotion is a sign that your teachers see you reaching a general level of skill and experience. from that respect, i think it is something worth pondering from time to time.
i get agitated that people that used to be in our camp would not acknowledge the belt advancement system we use. refusing to accept what your teachers offer you is a slap in the face-plain and simple.
i haven't heard of this "10 required years to black" stuff. what the heck? "mat time" is not congruent with "years spent training." guys who train 5 days a week will hit a given level twice as fast as guys who come in 2-3 times/week. it has more to do with time spent on the mat than with "years."
anyone know how long it took BJ Penn? it was 4 years! i've also read of many others doing it in 5.
i appreciate this writing, Conan.

I really enjoyed the Roy harris article, it put al...

2009-01-24T16:23:00.000-06:00

I really enjoyed the Roy harris article, it put alot of things into perspective. A good read!

Conan,

As usual, very insightful.

...

2009-01-24T16:07:00.000-06:00

Conan,

As usual, very insightful.

I completely agreed with you when you wrote, "I felt a responsibility to be better than I was the day before, as if the color of my belt provided me with some intrinsic super learning powers. Of course it didn’t, but I did find myself working even harder to meet my own expectations about where I thought I should be."

I believe everyone who is preparing for the next level should not only think about the skills they need to know for the next belt, but also the responsibility that comes with the promotion. This is especially true for the higher belts. As you advance, you should be researching outside the class, you should be preparing to teach. Every new student who walks in the door has no idea who you are, all they see is the belt. There is a lot of expectation there. If Sensei, can't be in class, you will be expected to take over, and you need to be ready.

After recently returning from my deployment, I was extremely impressed with the new students, and with the advancements the "older" students have made.

If/when I advance to the next level, I hope I will be able to meet not only my own expectations, but those of the entire group.

Good luck to everyone!!